Design Process
--IVIaedhros: Alright, with the ATR coming out soon, can you give us a general idea of how you design levels?
Cinderkarst: Well, first we settle on a height map set up between the LD and the producer. IE, is the terrain good for both HERCand human? Then, we discuss and put in features and bases based on the setting. We try to stick to Siege canon as closely as possible to stem any bitching from the purists.
IVIaedhros: What do you mean by canon? Are you referring to what worlds they're supposed to be based or just the general design theme?
Cinderkarst: The worlds in which they are based, as well as a general design theme. However, with design of most of the assets centralized between the concept artists and modelers, the generalized theme takes care of itself.
Generator: Can you show us any recent screenshots of some of the maps you've been working on?
Cinderkarst: Not quite yet, but if all goes well you should be seeing them very, very soon.
--IVIaedhros: How do you work with the other level designers...is this all solo or do you co-operate on maps together?
Roy_Fokker: Tell the truth now; you hate them all don't you.
Cinderkarst: Well, I'm currently working really closely SONOFMAN. He's helping me flesh out the stuff I want. Sentinal of MIB fame does what he can with getting things we need done. He really helped out in getting the terrain textures to the point they are now.
IVIaedhros: How do you work together with SONOFMAN? Will you work out objectives you each do or will you simply encourage/critique one another?
Cinderkarst: Well, I'd like to point out that when he types on IRC I have no idea what the hell he's saying. He's eternally losing the battle with his keyboard, but he is generally getting me the props I request, as well as troubleshooting issues I come across. Plus he does give me a pat on the ass here and there.
IVIaedhros: That's..lovely... yea, anyways, props...so he designs the objects for the map?
Cinderkarst: Well, I design some of the props too, but he's more knowledgeable than I when it comes to the workflow. Between the two of us we've done the interiors we have at this point. He's designed some stuff that is just fantastic, stuff you haven't even imagined, stuff that will make you weep.
-- Plague: Has there actually been any real play testing of any kind so far to determine balance, or is it all still first draft stats?
Cinderkarst: Can't tell you that yet.
IVIaedhros: ..Trajan showed screenshots of the buggy running around so there has been some limited play testing.
--IVIaedhros: Cinderkarst, are you involved with any department besides the mapping?
Cinderkarst: Not really, I chime in here and there but I don't really dabble anywhere else.
-- Aldaron: Will you be handling future released videos?
Cinderkarst: I don't do the promotional work.
NTDF Vyper: I will, when Traj decides it is time. I'm hoping to start on new promo material soon.
Aldaron: And what program(s) do you use to edit/create videos?
NTDF Vyper: I use Adobe Premiere and After Effects.
Aldaron: And about how much do those cost these days if I were theoretically going to buy them tomorrow.
NTDF Vyper: Premiere cost me $600 and I got a deal on After Effects $300.
--IVIaedhros: Here's something more general: what's the hardest thing about mapping right now?
Cinderkarst: On the hardest part of mapping Torque it's the fact that you have to work in a vacuum with interiors.
IVIaedhros: Can you explain? I'm not sure what you mean by a vacuum.
Cinderkarst: You see when creating DIFs, unlike Unreal, you have to work in a third party program. Thus, you can't make on-the-fly changes in the Torque map editor.
IVIaedhros: Have you lost any saved data that way..I'd be afraid of crashes.
Cinderkarst: I learned very, very well during my T mapping days to save a lot…and to turn off vertex lighting.
Roy_Fokker:
Cinderkarst: Roy got the joke.
Roy_Fokker: I would have though Kore would have fixed that by now…Kore you are slacking off.
Gameplay
--IVIaedhros: Here's a question I've been thinking about for a while. How do you design maps to take into account all the different modes of play? I mean there are HERCs, infantry, flyers, and tanks and not only that, but they all of which have different abilities to go over terrain.Cinderkarst: We take into account all different modes of transport and movement. As a matter of fact, my prelim Venus terrain was actually a little too sparse, so I added cliffs and valleys and just about any other geological structure I could think of.
--Kaz: Will gravity be a factor?
Cinderkarst: We haven't quite determined that. From my personal standpoint, it would frustrate rather than entertain, but I haven't heard the official word from Trajan yet.
IVIaedhros: I asked Trajan something like that a while ago and it sounds like it's going to be left for the community.
--IVIaedhros: Will the ATR have only WAR maps or will any of the other gameplay modes be present?
Cinderkarst: Hasn't been quite finalized what exactly we're shipping with the ATR, so I don't want to say anything at this point. Under promise, over deliver, or promise the exact amount, and deliver right there.
IVIaedhros: Well what have you been working on so far...has it been primarily WAR or have you seen anything else?
Cinderkarst: Been doing primarily WAR stuff at the moment, but it's only a matter of new components being delivered to my doorstep. The coders have been doing an amazing job of getting us stuff to work with.
IVIaedhros: That's good to hear, especially since there seems to be a lot of cycling going on with the staff recently with people coming and going all the time
Cinderkarst: That's to be expected though, especially with the engine jump and GG fans wanting to jump on board a promising project, but it's been settling down since and the names are starting to get more familiar on the dev boards, etc.
IVIaedhros: I'm talking more recently though...I guess it's still to be expected since this is a volunteer project and people have their lives.
Cinderkarst: Yeah, summer and all that. There's also fact that most are coming to realize that this is a labor of love: emphasis on labor.
--Kaz: How will spawning work? Will you be dropped in random places, dropped back at base, dropped back to the Vehicle Depot or will you always be dropped starting as infantry or back in your HERC?
IVIaedhros: I would assume you start as a pilot...correct? *raises eyebrow* I feel terribly insecure if my assumptions are not right....
Roy_Fokker: LOL, I think you expect too much of him
Cinderkarst: Indeed he does. That's something I don't feel comfortable giving that info out.
Kaz: Doh!
Cinderkarst: We have spawn things fleshed out, but I don't want to comment on them.
--IVIaedhros: What will the average flight ceiling be?
Cinderkarst: Map-dependant, but I'm going to say "high enough" for now. That's very much a balance issue bridge we haven't crossed yet.
--IVIaedhros: Alright, here's another: are some maps being designed specifically with the thought of different vehicles/technologies being restricted?
Cinderkarst: The maps were designing now are sandbox in nature, that is, everything will be available for use. Further maps... that remains to be seen.
IVIaedhros: That makes sense, since why would you want to restrict things when they're first released anyway
Cinderkarst: Indeed, restriction and restructuring of core gameplay is generally the realm of the fan base.
--IVIaedhros: Now for the bases will base structures be completely destructible or will only a few key structures like generators and turrets be vulnerable? Like, will I be able to take my Executioner and blast through a wall?
Chemeleon: Complete destructibility won't happen. At this point, even having parts being destroyable, is very unlikely I'd say. However, key points in the campaign are certainly possible.
Cinderkarst: At this point, I believe we're only going to allow for base assets to go down like gens and turrets [in the MP version].
Level Design
--Kaz: Cinder, can you elaborate on the different types of terrain?
Cinderkarst: Well, it is very much dependant on the way the terrain is defined in Starsiege's canon. For example, early shots of Venus you see a deep valley with high mountains surrounding it. Basically, it's a mixed bag and it'll only get mix-ier.
IVIaedhros: What about acid or any other dangerous natural obstacle be making an appearance?
Cinderkarst: There will probably be featured to some extent if I have my way on a few scores. It depends largely if they hinder gameplay to a point that it's just not fun.
--IVIaedhros: Here's another question on terrain...will the terrain type effect movement...say you can move faster on grass, slower in mud, etc, or will there only be simple terrain styles to blend in with the scenery?
Chemeleon: IIRC it's possible with torque. Whether we use it or not is "wait and see." That'd be interesting for sure, but I don't think we're going to do anything quite that simulation-like. It may turn out not to be fun or we might nix it to squeeze some extra performance out.
IVIaedhros: Well you've mentioned acid and water, so I assume that those at least will slow things down a bit.
Cinderkarst: Well, yeah, but you're talking terrainblock stuff where those would be handled in a waterblock situation.
IVIaedhros: Forgive my mapping ignorance.
Cinderkarst: It's no problem. I just don't want people getting the idea that we're doing old fashioned SS maps with no water or other natural liquids.
--Feret: Alright here is one for you. Do you have any levels/maps planned for some of the Historic events/battles mentioned in the timeline as it is released to date?
Cinderkarst: That remains to be seen/revealed.
-- IVIaedhros: Will some of the interiors be accessible to vehicles or will only infantry be able to get into anything?
Cinderkarst: Some have openings that will let more than infantry get in there, yes.
IVIaedhros: Alright, thnx for giving that…a related question...will any of the interiors be natural IE caves?
Cinderkarst: If I have my way, yes.
I love making caves and natural structures like that.--IVIaedhros: Now for a graphics question. Will the skyboxes change to reflect weather and time of day?
Chemeleon: It's possible, though the current day/night implementation for torque is a bit buggy last I heard, so it may be more hassle than its worth and as far as going from, for example, a clear day to a rainy, I'd say its not likely because we'd have to most likely create a way to generate the clouds dynamically, which gets pretty complex.
IVIaedhros: Hmm, hopefully TSE will smooth out the process.
Cinderkarst: Chem, I've actually seen a storm passing implemented in a Tribes map. It's very much in the realm of possibility I think, but another thing to consider on the day/night is the lag it could generate.
Chemeleon: Keep in mind that fading from one skybox to another could chew up graphics memory very quickly, especially on any maps that need x resolution images for the skybox.
Cinderkarst: Since that's actively changing something within the map that must be consistent across all clients.
Chemeleon: Two sets of x would eat up [a lot of memory]. The majority of the skies will be x , we tested some a few weeks ago and the only time it's a noticeable performance difference is with a lot of stars. In that case there are a few workarounds for that we might be able to try.
IVIaedhros: Ah well, I'd rather have good frame rate.
Cinderkarst: That's what we thought too.
--Kaz: Will there be out of bounds?
Cinderkarst: OOB hasn't been addressed quite yet and at least for Venus it's a null issue due to the surrounding mountains…AFAIK anyway. But if someone were to manage to get loose and run away with a game object into the wild blue, I'm sure that'd suck the fun out of a game. Only takes one asshole to shit all over everything. I'm gonna have to say that an OOB implementation will probably be there, since the risk is too great IMO.
Chemeleon: One thing to keep in mind. Once we switch over to TSE terrain size is essentially unlimited so if we do have out of bounds specified we could still leave a huge area to fight in.
Cinderkarst: Indeed, [in fact], I would say the terrain of Venus in TGE is as large if not larger than the T:V version.
Chemeleon: Yea, we can get plenty of size out of it for the ATR, it just wont be textured as nicely (or as detailed) as it will be in TSE
--IVIaedhros: Here's a question I'd like to ask again, will terrain be design with more cover (either natural or artificial) as compared to StarSiege? More than a few of us remember City on the Edge
Cinderkarst [Yes there will be.] After all, we don't want to let the infantry run out into the open only to get stepped on by an Adjudicator.
IVIaedhros: Hence your signature
Cinderkarst: LOL, indeed.
IVIaedhros: Cool, I like to hear that because it'll force the use of broader ranged tactics and unit selection.
Cinderkarst: I design my SS terrain with consideration to all things great and small.
Kaz: So like rocks scattered everywhere?
IVIaedhros: Probably depends on the individual map
Cinderkarst: Rocks, fjords, cliffs, depressions, natural trenches, buttes.
Kaz: Nice
Chemeleon: The amount of stuff like that will depend on performance...removing that type of thing is typically an easy way to get a performance boost, so if things are seeming to run slow, that's likely one of the first things to be dropped back.
--IVIaedhros: Trajan mentioned a while ago that the number of people possible will be much higher due to the engine switch. Now, I want know is what # of players do you typically make maps for?
Cinderkarst: Right now, I'm speculating that we'll be able to put at least 64 players on the field a la Tribes 2. There's really no indication to say that number's gonna be lower.
IVIaedhros: Yes, I believe that's what Trajan guestimated at though, he hinted client side could be a problem...however, I asking what # number do you design maps for. For example, in Tribes2 Firestorm and Minotaur were for a lower player count while Sanctuary was design for bigger teams.
Cinderkarst: Right now, the map I'm working on should do well enough [for mid to high ranged numbers], though it partially depends on the mix of units in play.
IVIaedhros: So that's about the standard for the ATR?
Cinderkarst: I can't speak for Sentinal and Storm[trooper] but I'm gonna get them in trouble and say yes.
IVIaedhros: Thnx for risking it
Cinderkarst: I'm sure we'll ship a few smaller maps too, just to be safe. But for now, I'm all about the one I'm doing. Epic is the word.
IVIaedhros: Can you give us any info on that one?
Cinderkarst: Nope, I'm going to let you hang out to dry until I have some screenies for you to drool over.
IVIaedhros: Figures...I think Trajan's cruelty is filtering down the ranks.
Cinderkarst: The man's a monster. So yes, it's affecting me.
IVIaedhros: Well..jaah, have you seen his picture? He's like satanic gaming god, totally squared away.
Cinderkarst: Indeed, I've heard his voice too.
--GDF|Stratus: Cinder, bit pointless to ask but will there be any hidden things like in the SS maps?
Plague: *makes "yack yack" hand motion*
Cinderkarst: You'll have to look Strat and find 'em… if there are any.
Aldaron:: Snowmen anyone?
IVIaedhros: Of course...avoiding an actual confirmation
Plague: You know they'll do something, it's a community thing, they're obligated to do something.
Cinderkarst: I know how to play this game Mae.
--IVIaedhros: Will there be any structures equivalent to hangar bays?
Cinderkarst: Yep. They'll be scaled down for MP play of course, basic holds and the like.
IVIaedhros: Will all vehicles/infantry use the same ones, or will bases have separate structures for each type?
Cinderkarst: If you remember the T V screenies, you see the barracks and the HERC bay. That was actual, functional stuff. They're my design BTW.
IVIaedhros: Frickin' sweet…I had thought those were only eye-candy.
Cinderkarst: We have the barracks in Torque now too, and everything fits for the most part. Seriously, there'll be plenty of places for you to fight and die in, whether part of the base proper, or just some abandoned building. You'll be pleasantly surprised.
--IVIaedhros: Related question will any of the MP maps tie into the SP? Besides thematically that is.
Cinderkarst: As you know, the two aspects are being developed separately. But will a shiny new MP map show up with some ties to the SP? I'd say yeah. We've got some really cool areas planned out for SP…really, really cool. One of the areas just floored me when I read the description. I would love to do an MP based on that area and in all fairness I probably will and you will know it when you see it. I can promise you this: you WILL shit yourself.
IVIaedhros: I will have the diaper ready
Cinderkarst: Excellent.
--Plague: How can we expect to see many city maps considering the background? It was said before there won't be any Sol system areas as maps post-ATR, so....
Cinderkarst: Plague, I'm not gonna comment on that right now. I might leave that one to the fans or as something for me to do as a pet project.
Plague: lah blah blah
IVIaedhros: Well, it's MP so it doesn't have to follow the story that closely as long as we have fun blowing crap up.
Plague: Early on they showed off Nova Alexandria... wonder what happened to all those art assets.
--Plague: By the way, are Cybrid buildings going to be placed on a sort of tiled surface area? Sort of like the... whatever they call them in Starcraft.
IVIaedhros: Zerg
Cinderkarst: Zerg, the Creep.
Plague: There you go.
Cinderkarst: It depends largely on what we do with the Human bases I imagine, at least MP-wise or what it does to FPS. Then again, we could always cheat and use a terrain texture.
Plague: Always thought Cybrid bases looked like they were dropped onto the terrain like giant toys and felt that could be corrected if there was a "pavement" made around them.
GDF|Stratus: Ah, in SS it didn't seem the bases were meant to be permanent
IVIaedhros: Well, you were dealing with mostly outposts in far off regions...hopefully that'll change this time around. What other alternative would there be?
Cinderkarst: Something more palpable might be used, Like a DIF.
--IVIaedhros: Another base question will underground tunnels be used at all...or if not tunnels then simply lower subsections or any other multi-leveled bases?
Plague: I recall being cursed because of that Cybrid base I made that some poor soul had to model (probably Chemeleon)... what's the largest building you've had to make/see poly-wise, or just sheer size?
Cinderkarst: I haven't been keeping up with poly counts the modelers have been posting, but on the underground thing stay tuned.
--Plague: How big is the focus going to be on using hills for cover? it never really worked well in SS, and I'd hate to see all the maps littered with thousands of hills
Cinderkarst: We're really looking at how well the terrain and all the different units play together. That's one of the big things that I'm interested in about this project. Terrain is gonna play a big role on what goes where.
Worlds in the ATR
--Plague: Are Mars and Venus the only ATR maps?
Cinderkarst: No, there are more maps in the works right now and they're moving along just as quickly as Mars and Venus are.
IVIaedhros: are they not in sol?
Cinderkarst: You'll see.
The Goad in the ATR
--Plague: Oh, yeah... will the ATR use the old Goad or the new Goad model?
Cinderkarst: Lips are sealed Plague.
Plague: Oh come on!
Cinderkarst: God, if I gave you all the answers I'd catch hell.
And plus I wouldn't feel quite so special.Aldaron:: I'm sure we wouldn't tell anyone else.
Torque Learning Curve
--IVIaedhros: Hey Aladaron, do you have any questions you'd like to ask him?
Aldaron: Hrmm, let me see...I've worked -very- little with the Torque engine, but how large is the projected learning curve going to be for an experienced Darkstar (StarSiege and Tribes 1 engine) mapper?
Cinderkarst: Should be minimal.
Plague: TGE is very easy to pick up on, though scripting can be a little odd in some places.
GDF|Stratus: Ah, good..
Cinderkarst: There will be new stuff, but it's all supposed to be the same sort of workflow.
Aldaron: Similar to how Starsiege worked with added features and more control, I take it?
Cinderkarst: Yeah, but more akin to T 's stuff. IE Water, etc…
Plague: one big difference is that TGE models don't drop when you add them.. they just hover.
GDF|Stratus: Ah, you mean buildings and stuff don't snap to the ground..
Plague: Yes.
The Community Aspect
IVIaedhros: Here's a question from the community nut that I am…Plague mentioned using contests for a while...so will there be any chance to include some "community" submitted maps into the multiplayer?
Cinderkarst: That would be Traj's call, and I imagine that there'd be some implications on that score of some manner of another.
Chemeleon: [It's not likely].
IVIaedhros: Anyways...do you plan on doing anything to help future mappers, such as writing tutorials, making template maps, etc?
Cinderkarst: Yes, I do. I learned to map because there were great tutorials out there.
IVIaedhros: I figured you would…do you have any specific ideas?
Cinderkarst: MissionBlank, tutorial, and other stuff along those lines. I'll probably open up a forum (or use the one we have/had) for questions.
Plague how many objects do you think will be reusable? Modern maps in games are more thematic than old ones, so it gets harder to reuse assets
Cinderkarst: The assets should be easily reusable without looking terribly out of place.
--IVIaedhros: K, next do know of any mappers whose work and ideas you really like and/or try to incorporate?
Roy_Fokker: Akira
Cinderkarst: Oh yeah, Akira and Hellfire are favorites of mine.
IVIaedhros: Related question what are your favorite maps in the StarSiege/Tribes series
Cinderkarst: Insurgence, I think it's epitome of T2 maps. Akira was a horrible, horrible perfectionist and it shows in all of his maps. Every detail was considered. I think he hand-sculpted all his terrain too and they were all very unique.
Aldaron: Can I get a link to some of his works?
Roy_Fokker: T2maps.com
Cinderkarst: But maps that I really like? Well, I haven't been so privy to Starsiege (only really played the SP to date), but T 2 maps I like the work of Akira, some of Nefilim's stuff. T1 I like the work of DOX. Each has their certain charm.
Final Thoughts:
~I can promise you this: you WILL shit yourself~
Cinderkarst
Related Links:
2845 Open Staff InterviewOfficial 2845 Website
